Why can't India make indigenous fighter jets and weapons?（2）

为什么印度自己造不来战斗机和武器？（2）

 Quora读者的评论：

Rohith Kumar, works at Hyderabad, Telangana, India

Originally Answered: Why is India so dependent on other countries for defense, weapons, aircraft, fighter planes etc? Does India not have the potential to have indigenous technology?

India's government has turned down its military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.

The push for India's struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against , which is causing anxety within military circles.

Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military's addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world's top importer.

The air force wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.

Read: Rafale fighter jets deal between India and France in jeopardy

最初的问题是：为什么印度在国防、武器、飞机、战斗机等方面如此依赖其他国家?印度难道没有掌握本土技术的潜力吗?

印度官员说，印度政府拒绝了军方提出的从达索航空公司多采购36架战斗机以填补重大缺口的要求，迫使印度军方接受研发了32年的国产战斗机。

印度总理纳伦德拉莫迪的决定符合他鼓励国内工业发展的“印度制造”政策，这不仅对法国制造商是一个打击，对其他觊觎印度军用航空市场的公司也是一个打击。印度军用航空市场价值数十亿美元。

印度对苦苦研发多年的光辉轻型战斗机的推动，正值印度空军处于1962年中印战争以来作战实力最为薄弱之际，这在军事圈内引发了焦虑。

自去年上台以来，莫迪政府一再表示，其首要目标是切断军方对外国武器的依赖，这种依赖使得印度成为全球最大的武器进口国。

印度空军希望政府在莫迪今年访问巴黎期间宣布的36架阵风中型多用途飞机的基础上，再新增采购44架阵风中型多用途飞机。

印度和法国之间的阵风战机交易岌岌可危。

But a defense ministry official said that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar had told the Indian air force that there weren't enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.

"The IAF (air force) needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints," the defense official said.

"The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category."

India's air force says its requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and . But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament's defense committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.

With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the air force would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.

Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.

Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world's most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.

但印度国防部一名官员说，印度国防部长帕里卡尔曾对印度空军说，印度没有足够的资金来扩大“阵风”战机的采购，印度军方必须引进国产“特贾斯-马克1A”改进型战机。

他说:“印度空军在任何时候都需要保有最低数量要求的飞机。考虑到我们的资源有限，轻型战斗机是现阶段我们最好的选择。

“阵风是我们最昂贵的军火采购。轻型战斗机是我们战斗机里最便宜的。”

印度空军表示，印度需要45个战斗机中队来应对来自巴基斯坦和的“两线威胁”。但议会国防委员会在4月份的一份报告中援引一名高级空军军官的陈述称，印度目前只有35个现役战斗机中队。

该委员会表示，随着前苏联时期MiG 21飞机数量的减少，按照目前的采购速度，到2022年，印度空军的战斗机中队数量将减少到25个。

政府在1983年通过了轻型战斗机的测验，由政府的国防研究和发展组织(DRDO)设计的轻型战斗机被认为是空军的骨干力量，于1994年服役。

但由于科学家们试图从零开始建造包括发动机在内的世界上最现代化的轻型战斗机，这架战斗机经历了多年的拖延和混乱。

Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.

"In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are," said an air force officer speaking on condition of anonymity.

Safety concerns

An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA program identified 53 "shortfalls" in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn't as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.

Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defense Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

"It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.

最终，他们放弃了自主研发发动机，向通用航空采购，降低了研制最先进战斗机的雄心。到目前为止，只造出

了一架飞机，可就连这架飞机也还在等待最后的操作许可，现在已经推迟到2016年初。

“今年1月，他们交付了一架轻型战斗机……尚未完成飞行测试。我们无法用一架飞机组成一个中队。这就是我们的现状”一位不愿透露姓名的空军官员说。

安全问题

印度审计长和审计员对轻型战斗机项目进行的独立调查发现，飞机上有53处“缺陷”。审计员在5月份的一份报告中说，这架飞机并不像承诺的那么轻，燃油容量和速度低于要求，存在安全隐患。

退役空军上将、前综合防御部队副参谋长马士瓦兰说，轻型战斗机已经过时了。

“这是一种飞行距离非常短的飞机，无法适用于现状的战场。如果你想证明这是阵风战机的替代品，那你绝对就是在拿苹果和橘子做比较，完全是风马牛不相及的两种东西。”

他说，这架飞机充其量只是一个技术演示机，印度工程师可以在此基础上制造下一代飞机，但不是空军能够借此赢得战争的武器。

Rishabh Umrao, studied Mechanical Engineering at MVJ College of Engineering

Originally Answered: When will India succeed in manufacturing indigenous weapons?

Well I don't know if you were aware of this fact, but YES we are manufacturing weapons indigenously and not from 1 or 2 years but 4 decades.

We have recently built ALH, LCH, LAH, LCA TEJAS, AKA MISSILE, AAD ANTI MISSLE DEFENCE SYSTEMS, BRAHMOS, AEW&CS (Airborne Early Warning System), HAWK-i Trainer Jet and now India is planning to develop AMCA (advanced medium combat aircraft) in near future. I'll recommend you to just browse internet and see developments happened at AERO INDIA 2017 and see the deals signed.

And most importantly we are the only country in the world which has the power to deploy a BALLISTIC CRUISE MISSILE (BRAHMOS in this case) THROUGH A FIGHTER Plane (SU 30 MKI).

We have recently inducted Medium range Artillery Gun known as ATAGS (Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System) and DHANUSH Artillery Gun system.

We have developed 5th Generation Stealth Aircraft with Russia known as PAK-FA ( Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii) and FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) and as expected these should be delivered by 2019–20 in IAF.

So saying that India has not developed any Indigenous Weapon is wrong.

And more important fact is that there is not a single country in the world which is manufacturing their weapons completely indigenously. Even USA's Aircraft components are being supplied from India. Point is that By what level are we able to make our product Indigenously.

So be proud of your country.

译文来源：三泰虎 http://www.santaihu.com/47462.html 译者：Joyceliu

最初的问题是：印度何时才能成功造出本土武器?

我不知道你们是否意识到这个事实，但是没错，我们是自主制造武器的，但不是从1年前或2年前，而是40年前就开始了。

我们最近建造了ALH、LCH、LAH、LCA TEJAS、AKA导弹、AAD反导弹防御系统、布拉莫斯、AEW&CS(机载预警系统)、HAWK-i教练机，现在印度还计划在不久的将来研发AMCA(先进中型战斗机)。我建议你浏览一下互联网，看看印度航空2017年的发展，看看签署的协议。

最重要的是，我们是世界上唯一有能力通过战斗机(SU 30 MKI)部署弹道巡航导弹(布拉莫斯导弹)的国家。

我们最近引进了中程火炮，称为ATAGS(先进牵引火炮系统)和DHANUSH火炮系统。

我们与俄罗斯合作开发了第五代隐形飞机PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii)和FGFA(第五代战斗机)，预计将于2019-2020年进入印度空军服役。

所以印度没有开发任何本土武器是错误的说法。

更重要的事实是，世界上没有任何一个国家能够完全自主制造武器。就连美国也会从印度进口飞机部件。关键是我们要达到什么水平才能使我们的产品本土化。

所以要为你的祖国感到骄傲。

Chandra Bhanu Prakash, Pensive; Impulsive; Inquisitive

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

We do not need to develop a fighter like the Rafale in question. This is our answer to the big fishes of the defence industry.

最初的问题是：为什么印度造不出阵风那样的战斗机?

我们不需要研制像阵风战机那样的战斗机。这就是我们对国防工业的回答。

Its a Sukhoi PAK T-50 FGFA(Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) jointly being developed by Russia and India. The Rafale, from the Dassault Aviation assembly line is a 3rd gen/3rd and a half gen fighter plane. It doesn't even come closer to what we are going to have in a couple of years.

The thing is that we are a poor country and hence have far more basic problems to deal with. We lack the infrastructure to go all out and develop ultra advanced weaponry. So, have to rely heavily on west for fulfillment of our defence equipments' need. Nevertheless, it hasn't stopped us from develo Brahmos or INS Vishakhapattnam or INS Kolkata. Agree, We are running at Mr. turtle's pace (due to financial and geo-political problems) but, In the not so distant future we are bound to dominate this field like all other fields we do.

这是由俄罗斯和印度联合开发的苏霍伊PAK T-50 FGFA(第五代战斗机)。阵风，来自达索航空装配线是第三代/第三代半战斗机，与我们在未来几年内将要拥有的东西完全不在同一个级别。

问题在于我们是一个穷国，因此有更多的基本问题需要解决。我们缺乏全力以赴开发超级先进武器的基础设施。因此，我们不得不严重依赖西方来满足我们国防装备的需求。尽管如此，这并没有阻止我们建造布拉莫斯或维沙哈帕特南或加尔各答。我同意，我们的进步确实非常龟速(由于财政和地缘政治问题)，但在不久的将来，我们一定会像我们在其他领域所做的那样主导这个领域。

Swapnil Kabra, Chief Investment Strategist at Credible Cow (2011-present)

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

India became a free nation in 1947. By then, the European and the Russian nations had 50 year odd experience in the field. After independence, India had more chronic problems to deal with than concentrate on manufacturing defence equipments.

Over the period of time, India has emerged as one of the leading nations in research and technology (for instance, ISRO's Mars mission). However, manufacturing a world class fighter jet requires superior technological infrastructure. The deal with Dassault includes promise of domestic manufacturing in the form of offsets, joint ventures and contracts for purchase of components for Rafale. Mark my words, India would manufacture world class defence equipments in 20 years from now.

P.S. The design stage of Rafale started in 1978, it took its first flight in 1986 and was introduced in 2001: a production cycle of 23 years.

最初的问题是：为什么印度造不出阵风那样的战斗机?

1947年印度成为独立的国家。当时欧洲和俄罗斯国家已经在这一领域有了50多年的经验。独立后，比起集中精力制造国防装备，印度有更多的长期遗留问题亟待解决。

经过一段时间的努力，印度已经成为在科研和科技方面的领先国家之一(例如，ISRO的火星任务)。然而，制造世界级战斗机需要出众的技术基础设施。印度与达索的协议包括承诺以抵消交易、合资建厂和“阵风”零部件采购合同等形式在国内生产。记住我在这里说的话，印度将在20年内制造出世界级的国防装备。

阵风战机的设计阶段始于1978年，1986年首次试飞，并于2001年推出：经历了23年的生产周期。

Eeshan Katoch

Originally Answered: Why is India so dependent on other countries for defense, weapons, aircraft, fighter planes etc? Does India not have the potential to have indigenous technology?

I am not an expert by any chance in this matter and whatever I have to say is with personal experience and random reading. The fact of the matter is that after independence India invested in low output ( more useful at the times ) technology like green revolution and stuff whereas our neighbours, the invested in high output technologies like nuclear power and weapons etc. Therefore, they have reaped a much greater benefit of that than us. Moreover, the metallurgy is India in not very good. The weapons that we have got from Russia ages ago work very fine, howsoever old they may be and the new age weapons that India has so called developed in the recent times is stuttering ahead due to huge design flaws which we realise very damn late( after inception) and really shitty metallurgy. The motors that they ( vintage Russia) provided us have never suffered a problem but new age Indian motors appear to have a lot of issues. Then again India is still not investing in R&D of weapons etc as aggressively as it should. The scientists in the few weapon research labs across India are also not too notch for the fact that they are paid stupidly and hence returns are expectedly less. The budget of this year also shows that even though the defence budget has increased, it is not on par with the rate at which we want to grow (search it up). The non exstence of defence people in the defence ministry hierarchy is also a reason and a stupid one for that matter as we are only one of the few countries who have this problem in the world, a big loophole for the country wanting to be at least regional superpower. This leads to controversial decisions. Whereas the country might not have money for the project that the armed forces want and hence wants a cheaper option, the armed forces does not care about this because it's looking at it from its own perspective and a cheaper option will not, by any chance , improve its capabilities and the decision to go ahead with sub standard equipment leads to no increase in capability as well as a bad set of equipment.

Just a small perspective.....

最初的问题是：为什么印度在国防、武器、飞机、战斗机等方面如此依赖其他国家?印度难道没有本土技术潜力吗?

在这个问题上我绝不是专家，我要说的都是我个人的看法。事实是，独立后，印度把钱投向了投入产出比很低(在当时更有用)的技术，如绿色革命等，而我们的邻国，则投资于产出比高的技术，如核能和武器等。因此，他们从中获得的好处比我们多得多。此外，印度的冶金水平也不是很高。多年前我们从俄罗斯采购的武器不管多老多旧，都一直用的好好的，而印度最近研发的所谓新时代武器，由于巨大的设计缺陷和糟糕的冶金技术一直推进得不顺利。他们提供给我们的发动机从来没有出现过问题，但新时代的印度发动机似乎问题极多。然而，印度仍然没有积极地投资于武器研发。在印度为数不多的几个武器研究实验室里工作的科学家们，工资水平不高，因此回报预期也较低。今年的预算也表明，就算增加国防预算，也没能达到我们预期的增长幅度(搜索一下)。国防部高层中没有国防人才也是一个原因，而且是个很愚蠢的原因，我们是存在这个问题的为数不多的几个国家之一，这对希望成为至少是区域强国的我们来说，是个很大的漏洞。这导致了一些具有争议的决策。国家可能没有钱来满足武装部队的心愿，因此想要实惠一点的选择，而军方不关心这个，因为它是从自己的视角来看待，退而求其次的便宜货不可能改善军力，而采用较低标准的军备的决策对提高军队作战实力毫无用处。

以上就是我的个人看法。

Abhishek Raj, works at NIIT

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

The quick answer is a big YES. India can manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale or even better in coming decade.After almost 30 years of planning and development for the Tejas LCA, India is placed in a elite league of countries who can manufacture fighter aircrafts of their own.Though Tejas is not as capable and advanced as other current generation aircrafts, It has helped India to build a whole range of manufacturing hubs starting from Engines to ancillary parts.We now have dedicated industries to cater to this fighter aircraft aviation industries.The Indian government's "self-reliance" goals for the LCA include development of the three most sophisticated — and hence most challenging — systems: the fly-by-wire (FBW)flight control system (FCS), multi-mode pulse-doppler radar, and afterburning turbofan engine.After acquiring these most important built capabilities we are on the path of self reliance on fighter aircraft manufacturing.

最初的问题是：为什么印度造不出阵风那样的战斗机?

答案是大写的能。未来10年，印度绝对可以制造出阵风这样、甚至更好的战斗机。经过近30年的光辉轻型战斗机的设计和研发，印度已经跻身于能够自主制造战斗机的精英国家行列。尽管光辉战机不像其他当代飞机那么先进出色，但它帮助印度建立了从发动机到辅助部件的一系列制造中心。我们现在有了专门的工业为这种战斗机航空工业服务。印度政府对轻型战机的“自力更生”目标包括研发三种最复杂的，因此也是最具挑战性的系统：线控飞行(FBW)飞行控制系统(FCS)、多模脉冲多普勒雷达和加力涡轮风扇发动机。在获得这些最重要的建造能力之后，我们就走上了自力更生制造战斗机的道路。

A fully operational Tejas LCA:

光辉轻型战斗机:

HAL Tejas

印度斯坦航空的光辉战机

Now the answer to why can't we manufacture if we have achieved so much.

The answer lies in a mix of indian mindset and current operational need of IAF.We are in deep trouble with respect to number of fighter aircraft squadron in IAF. We require more than 250 aircrafts in less than 5 years.

Otherwise in case of two front war from both and Pakistan , we will be in big trouble. So,the quick and tested solution is buying the ones like Rafale which has proved its mantle in a gruesome selection process by Indian forces. We have also a clause for investing back the 30% of buy price in India itself which will help create more jobs in this industry.

And now about Indian mindset.We are people who always have considered the foreign made things as more robust and technically advanced. So even if produce something like Rafale ,the world and more importantly we ourselves wont consider it as a big achievement. And the process of development fighter aircraft requires more than just base industries, it requires a conducive environment and supporting government.If India starts investing handsomely in this industry , people will start questioning its intentions and whole lot of ruckus will start.

So in the best interest of our country, the current Rafale deal is the need of hour. However, in the long run we are on path of develo our own fighters as in case of joint venture of India and Russia the T-50 PAK FA and the very indigenous Tejas LCA 2 together with our own fighter engines.Amen.

现在我来回答一下，既然我们已经取得了这么多成就，为什么我们生产不来呢?

答案在于印度的思维模式和印度空军当前的作战需求。我们在印度空军战斗机中队的数量上遇到了严重的麻烦。我们需要在5年内拥有250多架飞机。

否则，如果印度同和巴基斯坦发生两线战争，我们就会有大麻烦。因此，快速和可行的解决方案是购买像“阵风”这样的战机。我们还制定了一项条款，规定法国要把采购金额的30%投资回印度，这将有助于在这个行业创造更多的就业机会。

现在谈谈印度人的心态。我们一直认为外国制造的东西更强大，技术更先进。更重要的是，我们自己不认为这是一个巨大的成就。而战斗机的研发过程需要的不仅仅是基础产业，它需要一个有利的环境和政府的支持。如果印度开始对这个行业进行大力投资，人们就会质疑它的意图，开始各种骚动。

因此，为了我们国家的最大利益，目前我们急需采购阵风。但从长远来看，我们正在研发我们自己的战斗机，就像印度和俄罗斯的合资企业T-50苏霍伊航空多用途前线战斗机和本土的光辉战机2以及我们自己的战斗机一样。

A prototype PAK FA:

苏霍伊航空多用途前线战斗机原型:

Suyash Chandak, Chocolate Marketer, MBA and BSc (Economics)

Originally Answered: Why doesn't India manufacture its own fighter planes? Wouldn't it be cheaper and safer than buying from any other country?

International treaties and laws prevent sale or transfer of technology of nuclear capable missiles. But there are no such law preventing sale of fighter planes by one country to another. 

This meant India was and is a market for fighter planes. This lead to various countries and defence companies lobbying heavily to sell their products. This not only involved promoting their product but also involved shunting the development of any indigenous competitor. 

Since the commission of Tejas on 1983 India has finalised deals to import Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Sukhoi 30 MKI and finally MMRCA (Dassault Rafale finalised.) 

The same hasn't happened to our guided missile and space program. Sanctions did deny them technological transfer but they also acted as a protection from foreign company lobbying.  

This signifies the importance of transparent defence procurement.  

But having said this the recent procurements by IAF like Sukhoi 30 MKI, Dassault Rafale and Sukhoi FGFA (to be inducted post 2017) are as good as any fighter plane in their respective categories. We need to have a combination of indigenous and foreign technology.

最初的问题是：为什么印度不自己造战斗机?难道自己造不比从其他国家购买更便宜、更安全吗?

国际条约和法律禁止出售或转让具有核能力的导弹技术。但没有法律禁止一个国家向另一个国家出售战斗机。

这意味着印度过去和现在都是战斗机市场。这导致许多国家和防务公司在印度大力游说，销售自己的产品。这不仅涉及推广他们的产品，还涉及阻扰任何本土竞争对手的发展。

自1983年光辉战机委员会成立以来，印度已经敲定了进口捷豹、幻影2000、苏霍伊30 MKI以及最终的MMRCA(阵风达索最终敲定)的协议。

同样的事情并没有发生在我们的导弹和太空计划上。制裁确实阻止了他们的技术转让，但也起到了保护他们免受外国公司游说的作用。

这意味着国防采购的透明度有多么重要。

但尽管如此，印度空军最近采购的苏霍伊30mki、达索·阵风战机和苏霍伊FGFA战机(将于2017年后服役)在各自的类别中都很出色。我们需要本土技术和外国技术的结合。

Mike Mckenna, Lots of flights in Warbird Jets

Indians perfectly capable of develo their own aircraft and weapons systems and they have done so. I think they are very smart in letting OTHER countries spend the billions of dollars in research and testing and THEN buy this foreign product when it has been proven. By remaining non aligned and a bit coy, the Indians can buy the best of what Europe, Russians, Japanese, and American’s have to offer. Indian Aero-Space research and manufacturing may suffer from this policy, but the Indians end up with the best products at the best price. This is what National Defense is really about, protecting your Country without Bankrupting it.

印度人完全有能力开发自己的飞机和武器系统，他们已经做到了。我认为他们非常聪明，让其他国家花费数十亿美元进行研究和测试，然后在这个外国产品得到验证后再购买。通过保持不结盟和有点腼腆，印度人可以买到欧洲、俄罗斯、日本和美国所能提供的最好的东西。印度的航空航天研究和制造可能会受到这一政策的影响，但印度人最终会以最好的价格获得最好的产品。这就是国防的真正意义，在不让国家破产的情况下保护你的国家。

Sumit Bisht, an aam aadmi

Originally Answered: Why indian defence purchases/imports most of its weapons ,aircrafts,ships etc.Why can't we indigenously make weapons like israel,,france etc?

It is cheaper to buy a completely built product rather than research and develop one from scratch. Not everything is purchased as a completly built unit. Some are purchased under technology transfer/local manufacture or even leased to Indian armed forces to enable it to gain expertise.

Some of the successful defense weapons that have originated from India are actually products of JV between other countries and this is going to continue for foreseeable future.

Over time, this will change and the indigenous production will prove to be cheaper- a fact that is going to be reality in Indian navy earlier than the army and air force.

最初的问题是：为什么印度国防要购买/进口大部分的武器、飞机、船只等等?为什么我们不能像以色列、、法国这样自己造武器?

购买成品比从头开始研发要便宜。并不是所有的东西都是作为成品采购的。有些是通过技术转让/当地制造购买的，甚至租借给印度武装部队，让我们能够获得技术。

印度自主研发的一些成功国防武器实际上是与其他国家合资的产品，这种情况在可预见的未来还将继续下去。

随着时间的推移，这将会改变，本土生产会更便宜—这一事实将成为现实，印度海军将早于陆军和空军实现。