Has China really developed chip manufacture technology without the need of EUV?

中国真的研发出了不需要EUV的芯片制造技术吗?

Chips are very important. Our daily mobile phones, computers, and even washing machines contain chips. However, the fabrication of chips requires a lithography machine, especially the finer chips require higher fabrication processes. China has strong chip design capabilities, such as Huawei HiSilicon, but the lithography machine for chip production needs to rely on other countries. The Netherlands ASML is restricted by the United States and is not allowed to provide lithography machines to China, resulting in restrictions on chip manufacturing in China. However, China is said to have developed a chip manufacturing technology that does not require a lithography machine. So why is the lithography machine a shortcoming in China? How should China respond? How about the new chip manufacturing technology developed in China?

芯片很重要。我们日常使用的手机、电脑、甚至洗衣机都含有芯片。然而，芯片的制造需要光刻机，特别是更精细的芯片需要更高的制造工艺。

中国拥有强大的芯片设计能力，如华为海思，但用于芯片生产的光刻机需要依赖其他国家。

荷兰ASML受到美国的限制，不允许向中国提供光刻机，导致中国芯片制造受到限制。

但是，据说中国已经开发出了不需要光刻机的芯片制造技术。

那么为什么光刻机在中国是一个短板呢？

中方应如何应对？

中国新研发的芯片制造技术怎么样？

以下是印度网民的评论：

Notez 123

First off, despite huge support from Japan for the past two decades, Shanghai Micro only managed to produce lithography machines capable of 90nm node production and perhaps 45nm in sampling runs. And even that is receiving no orders except state run companies. Fabs in China'd rather buy used ASML/Nikon/Canon machines due to better support and production proven. Secondly, NIL had been researched by States since the mid-90s, it could potentially build feature sizes in the 5nm range, but its precision is much much worse than EUV-litho, the yield for modern microchips would be horrendous! Finally, for far too long China had piggybacked on the West and Japan to develop their microchip empire, now suddenly they have to go independent will certainly be met with some daunting challenges. Remember Japan also almost gone totally independent in chip development in the 90s and they were much better prepared than China.

首先，尽管在过去20年里得到了日本的大力支持，但上海微电子仅成功生产出了能够生产90纳米节点的光刻机，并可能生产出45纳米的样片。

即便如此，除了国有企业，也没有接到任何订单。中国的晶圆厂更愿意购买二手的阿斯麦/尼康/佳能机器，因为它们有更好的支持和经过验证的产量。

其次，自90年代中期以来，各国一直在研究NIL，它可能会在5纳米范围内构建特征尺寸，但其精度比光刻机差得多，现代微芯片的产量将是可怕的！

最后，长期以来，中国一直依靠西方和日本发展自己的微芯片帝国，现在他们突然不得不独立，肯定会遇到一些令人生畏的挑战。

记住，日本在90年代几乎完全独立于芯片开发，他们比中国准备得更好。

Erikve

Great, 5 nm by 2025; however, by then the leading chip manufacturers are aiming to use the euv scanners (and up) for 20 Angstrom and lower. Processes currently exposed at euv machines are expected to move to low-end duv scanners anyway: DRAM follow the 3DNAND example to stack structures. Apart from that, the proposed methodologies might also not be hvm proof yet, which makes them unreliable and useless for mass production.

太棒了，2025年实现5纳米。然而，到那时，领先的芯片制造商的目标是使用20埃或更低的EUV扫描仪。目前在EUV机器上暴露的进程预计将转移到低端duv扫描仪。

DRAM遵循3DNAND的例子来堆栈结构。除此之外，所提出的方法可能还不能大批量制造，这使得它们不可靠，对大规模生产毫无用处。

True North

Last time I checked ASML has 100% of the market for advanced chip making machines. Vague promises mean nothing.

上次我查到阿斯麦在先进芯片制造设备市场上占有100%的份额。含糊的承诺毫无意义。

K Wong

Anything that is man made, is always possible to remake or duplicate in the production of that particular item from a simple screw to the highly technical machine like the lithography machine. The question here is, how badly is that item or technology required to make a company more competitive in the global industry.? Remember, the west used to dismiss China’s ability to venture into space, let alone develo its own space station or operates their rover on Mars.? Well, today who’s laughing now.! As far as technological advancement is concerned, nothing is impossible to achieve so long as that country is strong & determined to succeed. China is no exception.

任何人造的东西，在生产过程中都有可能被重新制作或复制，从一个简单的螺丝钉到像光刻机这样的高技术机器。

这里的问题是，要让一家公司在全球行业中更具竞争力，对产品或技术的要求有多高。

请记住，西方曾经对中国的太空冒险能力不屑一顾，更不用说建设自己的空间站或在火星上运行探测器了。

好吧，今天谁在笑呢！就技术进步而言，只要一个国家强大，有决心成功，就没有什么是不可能的。中国也不例外。

homan2329

The worst thing you can do is to force your competitor to stop their reliance on your technology and create their own . It is the best way to make yourself irrelevant.

你能做的最糟糕的事情就是迫使你的竞争对手停止对你的技术的依赖，让他们自己创造技术。这是让自己变得无足轻重的最好方法。

wilson bethlehem

 "Chips are man made, not God". A powerful word.

“芯片是人造的，不是上帝造的。”说得多有力啊。

Agent Smith

It's always good with competition, and ASML basically have a monopoly on EUV. But I doubt China will be able to go to 3 and 2 nm any time soon (mass production).

竞争总是好的，ASML基本上垄断了EUV。但我怀疑中国能否在短时间内实现3纳米和2纳米(量产)。

Yisau Adekunle

All wars are not fought by military devices, economic doom is more devastating,... and it's usually not easy to resuscitate

不是所有的战争都是通过军事手段进行的，经济末日更具破坏性，而且通常不容易复苏

Chud Chadanstud

Nobody listens when I say we are too dependant on each other. The company I work for is only listening to accountants and is centralising everything. They're literally creating a house of cards to save money. Another side effect of them centralising is that we the core workers (Scientists and Engineers) are facing slow downs in nearly everything. We cannot innovate or compete because the the purchasing system is now convoluted and takes time to get through. Decentralisation is absolutely vital for growth and innovation.

当我说我们太依赖对方时，没有人会听。我工作的公司只听会计的话，权利集中起来。他们简直是在用纸牌搭房子来省钱。他们集中化的另一个副作用是，我们这些核心工人(科学家和工程师)几乎在所有事情上都面临放缓。我们无法创新或竞争，现在的采购系统错综复杂，需要时间才能通过审批。权力下放对增长和创新绝对至关重要。

Roger Valor

It is nice, if you could build your own processors. I still see it as a bigger achievement

如果您可以自己造处理器，那就太好了。我仍然认为这是一个更大的成就，

Mi Mi

If someone in the world could create 3nm chip, dun see why China can't or even beating others to b the best.

如果世界上有人能造出3纳米芯片，我不明白为什么中国不能，还不能打败其他国家？

Eyob Bekele

Of course the Chinese has been a tail and should learn how to be a leader. Sometimes the one who puts his fist first isn't a bad strategy if there is an attack or domination mindset in the otherside. Anyways chaos doesn't exst without Order, we will see which one prevail most.

中国人一直落后，应该学习如何成为领导者。有时候，如果对方有攻击或统治的心态，先下手为强的策略并不坏。无论如何，没有秩序就不会有混乱，我们会看到谁胜出。

Nad VGA

we have known about trade secrets for the longest time. and yet most couldnt replicate those secrets for their own gains. there are those who do but on lesser scales. not forgetting their claims just before covid that they had their own OS !

我们早就知道了商业机密。然而，大多数人无法为了自己的利益而复制这些秘密。有些人这样做，但规模较小。不要忘记他们在新冠疫情之前声称他们有自己的操作系统

Bobby Liu

America is no more as confident in itself as in the past somehow. We used to create new things, cultivate new industry that afforded us better paid jobs but now we just spent too much effort, resource to hold China in the closet ho that can bar them from repeating our success. Ho others not success should not become our main job, our job is to expand in RnD, invention, development, creation.

不知何故，美国不再像过去那样自信了。我们曾经创造新事物，培育新产业，为我们提供更高收入的工作，但现在我们花了太多精力和资源遏制中国，希望能阻止他们复制我们的成功。希望别人不成功不应该成为我们的主要工作，我们的工作是在研发中拓展，发明，发展，创造。

Hong Luong

China buys DUV machines from ASML, not EUV machines, so the partnership between China and ASML will still continue.

中国从阿斯麦购买DUV机器，而不是EUV机器，所以中国和阿斯麦的合作关系仍将继续。

marvin c

It's not 5 years later, it's not 3 years later, it's happening now.

不是5年之后，也不是3年之后，而是现在。

Wilson Yap

I really hope that China can breakthrough the difficulties and barriers to begin production of their own 3nm chips in the not too distant future.

我真的希望中国能够突破困难和障碍，在不久的将来开始自主生产3纳米芯片。

Olivier Liengme

I believe is doing better using photons and not electrons. There is a size limit with electrons in silicium for the physics going quantum

我认为用光子比用电子更好。硅原子中电子的大小是有限制的

Peter Jacobsen

I'd like to see a 5 nm thick potato chip. Must be very crisp!

我想看看5纳米厚的薯片，一定很脆

rasmokey4

How did we ever live without Chips?

没有芯片我们怎么活?

DAVID LIM

ASML can send their lithography machines to their USmasters. China do not want them anymore.

ASML可以把他们的光刻机寄给他们的美国主人。中国不再需要他们了。

Jackey Lee

People seem to have neglected the fact that US sanctions have greatly hurt the sales of chip machines and chip exports. China used to buy 50% of the chips in the global market. Who has the huge appetite for chips to replace China? Sales forecast by Wall Street for chips export will drop by more than 30% in 2023. The US sanctions will encourage China to spend more money in chips research and development - R/ D. China doesn't lack the capital for chip R/D.

人们似乎忽视了一个事实，即美国的制裁已经极大地损害了芯片机器的销售和芯片出口。中国过去购买了全球市场50%的芯片。谁对芯片有巨大的需求，来取代中国？华尔街预测，2023年芯片出口销售额将下降30%以上。美国的制裁将鼓励中国在芯片研发上投入更多资金，中国并不缺乏芯片研发的资金。

Philip Tan

With the NIL technology within 3 years China can be at the forefront of chips technology beyond the traditional lithography assisted manufacturing technology. The other promising photonic chips technology may give some results by next year which will make China the leader in manufacturing and use of photonic chips in high-end products. ASML Will probably maintain its position in the market for lithography machines in the next few years with China as its dominant market. The race for the dominance of chips technology will slowly but surely be won by China as she has the biggest pool of talented people in a growing economy and technology.

随着NIL技术的发展，中国将在3年内超越传统的光刻辅助制造技术，走在芯片技术的最前沿。另一项有前景的光子芯片技术可能会在明年取得一些成果，这将使中国成为高端产品中光子芯片制造和使用的领导者。未来几年，阿斯麦可能会保持其在光刻机市场的地位，中国将是其主导市场。在争夺芯片技术主导地位的竞赛中，中国将缓慢但肯定会获胜，因为在不断增长的经济和技术中，中国拥有最大的人才储备。

Derick Gannon

Will it bring down graphics processor prices ?

它能降低图形处理器的价格吗?

Cinematic Concept

they can create but not overnight, it would take another 5-10 years to perfect it

他们可以创造，但不是一夜之间，需要5-10年的时间来完善

Pieter Viljoen

We have been under 65 nm for more than 15 years now. Some of this is just recycling old news

我们实现65纳米以下已经超过15年了。有些只是在重复旧闻

가나다

The Chinese always speak only the truth. The Chinese don't bluff. They also describe their success very objectively. Let's wait and see when China will show us a better machine than ASML's.

中国人向来只讲真话。中国人从不虚张声势。他们也非常客观地描述自己的成功。让我们等着看中国什么时候会向我们展示比阿斯麦更好的机器。

Mario D

ASML still delivering at China!

阿斯麦还在向中国交货！

Peet

''Has China really developed chip manufacture technology without the need of EUV?'' Not even close, but with tremendous hard work, possibly over 10 years. But by then AMSL, well, we all know the answer to that.

中国真的研发出了不需要EUV的芯片制造技术吗？还差得远，但要付出巨大的努力，可能要花上10年时间。但到那时，我们就知道答案了。

IMNODOCTOR

The power of more than one billion minds versus the world. Awesome.

十多亿人的头脑对抗全世界。太棒了。