乌尔兰为什么这么穷

Why is Ukraine so poor?

乌尔兰为什么这么穷？

以下是Quora读者的评论：

Gilda Farrell

The land of Ukraine itself is very rich. It has some of the best farmlands, orchards and mineral deposits in Europe. Where Ukrainians have been poor is politically and/or militarily. Ukraine is a weak have country.

Russia on the other hand has always been poor in land resources being far enough north not to have the best farmlands, orchards and fishing. But Russia much more often been strong politically and militarily. Russia is a strong have-not country. Strategically it does not bode well for a close-by weak have country. Russia has always lusted after Ukraine’s resources. Its rulers have been bullying Ukraine for about 6 or 700 years and have managed to make sure that Ukraine never developed political or military strength.

Ukraine is also surrounded by Poland, Hungary and Lithuania - all countries with more political and military strength than Ukraine and whose interest it was to keep Ukraine weak.

乌克兰的土地非常富饶。它拥有欧洲最好的农田、果园和矿藏资源。乌克兰的贫穷在于政治和(或)军事方面。乌克兰是一个软弱的国家。

另一方面，俄罗斯的土地资源一直很贫乏，因为它距离北方很远，没有优质的农田、果园和渔业。但俄罗斯在政治和军事上强大得多。俄罗斯是一个强大的穷国。从战略上讲，这对一个邻近的弱国来说并不是好兆头。俄罗斯一直觊觎乌克兰的资源。它的统治者在600到700年的时间里一直在欺负乌克兰，并设法确保乌克兰的政治或军事实力无法得到发展。

乌克兰还被波兰、匈牙利和立陶宛包围着，这些国家的政治和军事实力都比乌克兰强，他们也希望乌克兰一直保持软弱。

In many ways Ukraine has been as occupied and exploited by its neighbours as Africa has been exploited by Europeans. Ukraine made a strong attempt to liberate itself in 1918 when Lenin announced that any countries in the former Russian Empire who no longer wanted to be part of the Empire could leave. Immediately Finland, the Baltic States, Ukraine and Belarus declared their independence. Lenin, of course, was not prepared for any countries wanting to leave and promptly launched the muscle of the Russian military against them. Only Finland got away. Western Ukraine always remained in Poland.

When Stalin took over he was determined to crush an idea of Ukrainian autonomy. First was to force wealthy Ukrainian farmers to farm in collective farms, which they refused to do. Stalin’s strategy was to create the Holodomor, where these farmers were prevented physically from rea the harvest in their fields and as a result starved to death. Numbers who died directly or indirectly of the created famine, or whose lives were tragically disrupted have been numbered to be around 10,000,000.

在许多方面，乌克兰被邻国占领和剥削，就像非洲被欧洲人剥削一样。1918年，当宣布前俄罗斯帝国中任何想独立的国家都可以独立时，乌克兰表现出了极大的意向。芬兰、波罗的海诸国、乌克兰和白俄罗斯都立即宣布独立。当然没有准备好接受这一事实，迅速动用俄罗斯军队对付它们。只有芬兰成功脱身。乌克兰西部一直留在波兰境内。

斯大林上台后，决心粉碎乌克兰自治的想法。首先是强迫富有的乌克兰农民在集体农场耕作，但他们拒绝这样做。斯大林的策略阻止农夫们在他们的土地上进行收割，结果他们都被饿死了。直接或间接死于饥荒的人数，或生活秩序被不幸打乱的人数达到了1000万人。

Stalin then proceeded to rid Ukraine of as many Ukrainians as possible. Approxmately 20% of the population was randomly removed from their homes and dispersed all over the Soviet Union, usually to the most bleak and remote places like Siberia and Kazakhstan.

After WWII the Soviet Union took over control of Poland, and Western Ukraine also fell under its auspices.

When the Soviet Union broke up in 1991 Ukraine voted some 80% to leave the Russian Federation. This was always a thorn in Russia’s side because again, the rich grain fields, orchards and mineral deposits. And because oil, one of the few resources Russia has would have to be pipelined through Ukraine to reach markets in Europe. Since 1991 Russia has tolerated Ukraine’s independence because the West supported any country who wanted to transition away from co sm. But Ukraine has always been aware of Russia hovering over it and felt its heavy breath on its neck.

斯大林接着开始清除乌克兰人。大约20%的人口被随机地驱赶出自己的家园，散居在苏联各地，通常是被驱赶至西伯利亚和哈萨克斯坦等最荒凉、最偏远的地方。

二战后，苏联接管了波兰，乌克兰西部也落入苏联的统治之下。

1991年苏联解体时，乌克兰以80%的选票脱离俄罗斯联邦。这一直是俄罗斯的眼中钉肉中刺，因为乌克兰拥有富饶的粮田，果园和矿藏。而且，作为俄罗斯仅有的少数资源之一，石油必须通过管道经过乌克兰才能进入欧洲市场。自1991年以来，俄罗斯一直容忍乌克兰的独立，因为西方支持所有希望摆脱*主义体制的国家。但乌克兰一直摆脱不了俄罗斯的压力和遏制。

Russia does not have much of a history of diplomacy. Russia may have tried to sincerely befriend Ukraine and thus get its needs met. But Russia prefers to bully and intimidate so thus the current political situation. And why Ukraine is poor.

My grandparents were born and raised in Ukraine and experienced most of the above. That’s my claim to expertise.

俄罗斯没有多少外交历史。俄罗斯曾经可能真诚地试图帮助过乌克兰，并借此满足自身的需求。但俄罗斯更喜欢欺凌和恐吓，所以这就是目前的政治局势以及乌克兰为何贫穷的原因。

我的祖父母在乌克兰出生、成长，经历了上述大部分的历史。所以我对此非常熟悉。

Ross Khanas

Ukraine is not poor. The are a lot of smart people and a lot of resources, but they are controlled by wrong people.

That is something that used to happen to all post-soviet countries, some of them could get rid of that more easily, some not. In case of Ukraine, we had too tight economical and political relationships with Russia and too much pro-Russian politicians which were not considering Ukraine as a strong independent country, but just as a tool for getting wealthy.

Corruption kills the economy and the potential growth. Most of the richest people are literally criminals, not really educated and do not think about investment in future, but think about only the current situation. That is why biggest companies like “Metinvest” make and sell a low-quality steel, but do not think about applying modern technologies and sell more value-added products.

乌克兰并不穷。他们有很多聪明的人才和资源，但是他们被错误的人控制了。

这是苏联解体后独立出来的国家都曾经历过的事情，其中一些国家比较轻松地脱身了，而另一些则不然。说到乌克兰，我们与俄罗斯的经济和政治关系过于紧密，而且有太多的亲俄政客，他们并未把乌克兰视为一个强大的独立国家，而只是把它当作致富的工具。

腐败扼杀了经济和潜在的增长。大多数最富有的人实际上是罪犯，没有受过真正的教育，不考虑对未来的投资，而只考虑眼前的利益。这就是为什么像“Metinvest”这样的大公司只生产和销售低质量的钢材，却不考虑应用现代技术，销售附加值更高的产品。

Alex Ladov

In Soviet Union Ukraine on average was richer than Russia, especially Russian-speaking South and East of Ukraine where Russian Empire and USSR created a lot of industries like coal mining, metallurgy, ship building, aviation (the biggest commercial airplane in the world was made in Ukraine), rocketry etc. Of course all Ukrainian industries were absolutely integrated into Soviet system and relied on cooperation with Russia and other former Soviet republics.

However, Western Ukraine which was not part of Russia Empire and became part of Soviet Union in fact only after WWII was very poor and uneducated agricultural land. It still remains mostly agricultural, there is no any significant industry and many people are even not able to speak Russian.

前苏联时期，乌克兰平均而言比俄罗斯富裕，特别是在乌克兰南部和东部讲俄语的地区，俄罗斯帝国和苏联在那里打造了许多产业，如煤矿、冶金、造船、航空(世界上最大的商用飞机是在乌克兰制造的)、火箭等。当然，乌克兰所有的工业都完全融入了苏联体系，并依赖于与俄罗斯和其他前苏联共和国成员国的合作。

但西乌克兰之前并非俄罗斯帝国的成员，直到二战后才成为苏联的一部分，这里是非常贫穷，教育程度很低的农业地区，以农业为主，没有主要工业，许多人甚至不会说俄语。

Unfortunately, Western Ukrainians got support from US and EU that helped to arrange coup and capture all power in 2014, so currently Western Ukrainians are imposing their model of de-industrialization and rural poverty. These crazy nationalists (led by US masters of course) managed to destroy all cooperation with Russia and to split Eastern Ukrainian industrial Donbass area, so some very important for Ukrainian industry territories now became independent republics - and Ukrainian nationalists killed all cooperation between Eastern regions of Ukraine by blocking railroads.

Ukrainian industry is currently in ruins and it will never fully recover because Russia already replaced most of Ukrainian goods and parts with more modern analogs made in Russia.

Actually, Americans wanted to implement the same model of “development” in Russia, like in Ukraine they also financed all kinds of nazi and other opposition to Putin - but Putin and Russia did not give up and survived, that’s why today Russian PPP per capita is 3 times better than Ukrainian.

不幸的是，西乌克兰得到了美国和欧盟的支持，协助其进行了2014年的政变并夺取了所有的权力，所以现在西乌克兰正在推行他们的去工业化和农村贫困的模式。这些疯狂的民族主义者(当然是由美国主导的)破坏了与俄罗斯的所有合作，分裂了乌克兰东部的工业区顿巴斯地区，因此，一些对乌克兰工业非常重要的领土现在变成了独立的共和国，乌克兰民族主义者通过封锁铁路扼杀了东乌克兰地区之间的所有合作。

乌克兰的工业目前满目疮痍，永远无法完全恢复，因为俄罗斯已经用俄罗斯制造的更现代化的类似物取代了大部分乌克兰的商品和零件。

实际上，美国人想在俄罗斯实行同样的“发展”模式，比如在乌克兰，他们还资助了各种纳粹和其他反对普京的人——但普京和俄罗斯并没有放弃并幸存下来，这就是为什么今天俄罗斯的人均购买力平价已达乌克兰人的3倍。

Alexander Pugachev

Ukraine is historical, core, very important part of Russia.

Overall ex-Russian Empire is a colony of others, more wise countries. Profits go abroad. For this situation to be stable certain action is required. Examples from Ukranian life: lack of proper rules about property, tribalism in politics, self-denying ethnical identification. Ideological and even political decisions can’t be taken inside the country.

During USSR years Ukraine was more or less wealthy (comparing to RSFSR) but it was poorer than Pribaltika (Latvia, Litva, Estonia) and much poorer than Caucasian republics (Georgia, Armenia, etc.). Technical lifestyle was inherited because it was important part of USSR industrialization (after civil war chaos of 1914–1921). Currently you witness massive deindustrialization.

Saying all that, it’s not an uncommon situation. Think of Bangladesh, or Maybe China will also face some changes in future, but I wish your current period of wealth and stability last long.

乌克兰是俄罗斯历史上的核心，非常重要的一部分。

总的来说，前俄罗斯帝国是其他更聪明的国家的殖民地。利润流向国外。要使这种情况稳定下来，必须采取某些行动。以乌克兰生活为例：缺乏适当的财产规则，政治上的部落主义，自我否定的民族认同感。意识形态甚至政治决策都无法在国内达成。

在苏联时期，乌克兰还算是富裕的，但它比普里巴尔的卡（拉脱维亚、利瓦、爱沙尼亚）穷，也比高加索共和国（格鲁吉亚、亚美尼亚等）穷得多。技术生活方式得以延续是因为它是苏联工业化的重要组成部分（1914-1921年内战混乱之后）。现在你会发现他们正在进行大规模的去工业化。

也许中国在未来也会面临一些变化，但我希望你们现在的财富和稳定的时期能够长长久久。

James Joseph

Ukraine is now coasting on the last of its Russian education system, which is rich in mathematics and engineering. Now Ukrainian schools are not even teaching math to younger students. It’s not needed now. The once-mighty Antonov Aircraft enterprise, builder of the biggest planes in the world, is now bankrupt and reduced to making trams for cash. Within one generation, Ukraine will be a nation of poorly-educated farm labourers working for foreign land-owners. Meanwhile, Russia is still pushing forward with advanced science and math, astrophysics, nuclear science, scientific agriculture, cars and trucks, and medical sciences. Ukraine’s GDP per person has fallen to 1/3 of the GDP of Russia, which means the average Ukrainian is now about 66% poorer than the average Russian - and getting poorer with each passing day.

乌克兰现在依靠的是其俄罗斯教育体系，该体系在数学和工程学方面非常出色。现在乌克兰的学校甚至不教低年级的学生数学。现在不需要了。曾经雄霸一时的安东诺夫飞机制造公司，世界上最大的飞机制造商，现在破产了，只能靠制造有轨电车赚钱。在一代人的时间内，乌克兰将成为一个教育程度较低的为外国土地所有者工作的农场劳动者的国家。与此同时，俄罗斯仍在推进先进科学和数学、天体物理学、核科学、科学农业、汽车和卡车以及医学。乌克兰的人均GDP已经下降到俄罗斯GDP的三分之一，这意味着乌克兰人的平均收入比俄罗斯人的平均收入要低66%，而且越来越穷。

Martin Suster

No European country is among Low Income Countries (includes mostly African and some Asian Countries).

Only four European countries are Lower-Middle Income: Kosovo, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine

After the break-up of the Soviet Union Ukraine was at about the same level of development as Belarus and Russia (upper-middle today) or Poland (high income).

What has happened was mainly enormous corruption and a bunch of oligarchs completely hijiacking the government. While the rest of the former socialist countries did some market reforms (some did a lot of good reforms - e g. Estonia), Ukraine has regressed and is now poorer than 25 years ago. The Russian invasion of Crimea and the russian-sponsored war in Donbas did not help either.

没有一个欧洲国家属于低收入国家(主要包括非洲和一些亚洲国家)。

只有四个欧洲国家的收入低于中等收入水平：科索沃、格鲁吉亚、摩尔多瓦和乌克兰。

苏联解体后，乌克兰的发展水平与白俄罗斯和俄罗斯（今天的中上）或波兰（高收入）差不多。

但严重的腐败和寡头把政府事务搞得一团糟。虽然其他前社会主义国家也进行了一些市场改革（有些国家完成了不错的改革，例如爱沙尼亚），但乌克兰已经倒退，现在比25年前更穷了。俄罗斯入侵克里米亚和俄罗斯赞助的顿巴斯战争也没有帮助。

Paul Ashby

Ukraine is not ‘poor’.

It might well not have the GDP of many Countries, the wages are not as high as some other Countries, but the people are not destitute or poor, because of this thing called relativity.

Compared to for example Dubai, most Countries are ‘poor’.

乌克兰并不“贫穷”。

它的国内生产总值可能不如其他国家，工资也没有其他一些国家高，但人民也并不是一贫如洗，因为有一种东西叫做相对性。

与迪拜相比，大多数国家都是“贫穷的”。

Alexander Zyznewski

Statistically it may be one of the poorest countries in Europe, but if you visit the country you get the feeling it is doing fine. Cities like Kyiv, Lviv, Odessa are world-class and very cosmopolitan. Ukraine has a sizable gray or underground economy, maybe more than 50 percent. Millions of Ukrainians work and live in richer countries. Their remittences sent to Ukraine are into Billions of Dollars/Euros. Visit Ukraine and see for yourself.

从数据上看，它也许是欧洲最贫穷的国家之一，但如果你去这个国家旅游，你会觉得它非常好。像基辅、利沃夫、敖德萨这样的城市都是世界级的大都市。乌克兰有相当大的灰色或地下经济，可能超过50%。数百万乌克兰人在更为富裕的国家工作和生活。他们寄往乌克兰的外汇达数十亿美元/欧元。自己去乌克兰看看吧。

Yuliya Ko

No, I dont thjnk so. Economy is growing GDP growth this year 3.5%, higher than European average and higher than Russian GDP growth 1.8%. Currency reserves also growing and have reached now 20 billion dollars. Average salary according to official statistics equivalent of 400 usd, in Kiev 500–6 00usd, prices are lower than in western Europe about two times.

不，我不这么认为。经济一直在增长，今年的GDP增长了3.5%，高于欧洲平均水平，也高于俄罗斯1.8%的GDP增长。外汇储备也在增长，目前已达到200亿美元。据官方统计，乌克兰的平均工资相当于400美元，在基辅500 - 600美元，物价比西欧低约两倍。

译文来源：三泰虎 https://www.santaihu.com/p/50799.html 译者：Joyceliu

Taras Kryvko

What do you mean by so poor?

South Sudan is really poor, North Korea is poor… Ukraine is much richer than these really poor countries, so the question is no a question, but an attempt to humiliate Ukrainians.

Ukrainians are not poorer than Belarusian or Russians

你说这么穷是什么意思？

南苏丹真的很穷，朝鲜很穷，但乌克兰比这些穷国富裕得多，所以这个问题只是想羞辱乌克兰人。

乌克兰人并不比白俄罗斯人或俄罗斯人穷。